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	<title>Comments for Possibly Philosophy</title>
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	<link>http://possiblyphilosophy.wordpress.com</link>
	<description>Weblog devoted to the philosophy of language, metaphysics and philosophical logic</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 11 Dec 2009 14:56:46 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Truth as an operator and as a predicate by Andrew Bacon</title>
		<link>http://possiblyphilosophy.wordpress.com/2009/11/05/truth-as-an-operator-and-as-a-predicate/#comment-1783</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Bacon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Dec 2009 14:56:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://possiblyphilosophy.wordpress.com/?p=408#comment-1783</guid>
		<description>Thanks!

Actually I saw him give a talk on this. I should definitely work through it properly though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>Actually I saw him give a talk on this. I should definitely work through it properly though.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Truth as an operator and as a predicate by Aaron</title>
		<link>http://possiblyphilosophy.wordpress.com/2009/11/05/truth-as-an-operator-and-as-a-predicate/#comment-1782</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Dec 2009 14:50:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://possiblyphilosophy.wordpress.com/?p=408#comment-1782</guid>
		<description>Cool paper here:

http://projecteuclid.org/DPubS?service=UI&amp;version=1.0&amp;verb=Display&amp;handle=euclid.bsl/1255526080

Seemed like it&#039;d be right up your alley.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cool paper here:</p>
<p><a href="http://projecteuclid.org/DPubS?service=UI&amp;version=1.0&amp;verb=Display&amp;handle=euclid.bsl/1255526080" rel="nofollow">http://projecteuclid.org/DPubS?service=UI&amp;version=1.0&amp;verb=Display&amp;handle=euclid.bsl/1255526080</a></p>
<p>Seemed like it&#8217;d be right up your alley.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Guessing the result of infinitely many coin tosses by Fred</title>
		<link>http://possiblyphilosophy.wordpress.com/2008/09/22/guessing-the-result-of-infinitely-many-coin-tosses/#comment-1715</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 22:31:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://possiblyphilosophy.wordpress.com/?p=197#comment-1715</guid>
		<description>For a plain mathematical formulation of this &quot;paradox&quot; see Problem 5348, American Mathematical Monthly 72 (1965), p. 1136.
(WARNING: The *first* solution of Problem 5348 published in the Monthly was incorrect; the second solution they published was correct, as was the proposer&#039;s.) This result has been applied toward the construction of counterexamples in algebra: see Karel Prikry et al., &quot;Infinitary Jonsson algebras and partition relations, Algebra Universalis 6 (1976), 367-376,, and George M. Bergman et al., Transversals of families in complete lattices, and torsion in product modules, Order 3 (1987), 391-403.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For a plain mathematical formulation of this &#8220;paradox&#8221; see Problem 5348, American Mathematical Monthly 72 (1965), p. 1136.<br />
(WARNING: The *first* solution of Problem 5348 published in the Monthly was incorrect; the second solution they published was correct, as was the proposer&#8217;s.) This result has been applied toward the construction of counterexamples in algebra: see Karel Prikry et al., &#8220;Infinitary Jonsson algebras and partition relations, Algebra Universalis 6 (1976), 367-376,, and George M. Bergman et al., Transversals of families in complete lattices, and torsion in product modules, Order 3 (1987), 391-403.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Truth as an operator and as a predicate by Aaron</title>
		<link>http://possiblyphilosophy.wordpress.com/2009/11/05/truth-as-an-operator-and-as-a-predicate/#comment-1668</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:17:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://possiblyphilosophy.wordpress.com/?p=408#comment-1668</guid>
		<description>The result is just this: if you have a truth predicate s.t. $latex T(\ulcorner A \urcorner)$ and $latex A$ can be substituted for each other in all (extensional) contexts w/o change in semantic value, then for any operator $latex \odot$ one can form the predicate $latex \odot T(\ulcorner A \urcorner)$. You can also take any predicate P and turn it into an &#039;operator&#039; on sentences using $latex T(P(\ulcorner A \urcorner))$. I suppose that&#039;s not as obviously relevant to your idea as I initially thought. 

I don&#039;t know much about the operator theories of truth, either. Probably the most worked out theory in this vein is the prosentential theory (Grover, et al). I guess the generalization issue is this: the truth predicate allows us to generalize over sentences using out regular old first-order quantifiers (the truth predicate allows for semantic ascent). On an operator theory of truth there&#039;s no &quot;semantic ascent&quot; going on; we&#039;d still need propositional or substitutional quantification in order to generalize over the true sentences. So we&#039;re introducing a new kind of quantification to play the generalizing role that the truth predicate was intended to play.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The result is just this: if you have a truth predicate s.t. <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=T%28%5Culcorner+A+%5Curcorner%29&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=61636a&#038;s=0' alt='T(\ulcorner A \urcorner)' title='T(\ulcorner A \urcorner)' class='latex' /> and <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=A&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=61636a&#038;s=0' alt='A' title='A' class='latex' /> can be substituted for each other in all (extensional) contexts w/o change in semantic value, then for any operator <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=%5Codot&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=61636a&#038;s=0' alt='\odot' title='\odot' class='latex' /> one can form the predicate <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=%5Codot+T%28%5Culcorner+A+%5Curcorner%29&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=61636a&#038;s=0' alt='\odot T(\ulcorner A \urcorner)' title='\odot T(\ulcorner A \urcorner)' class='latex' />. You can also take any predicate P and turn it into an &#8216;operator&#8217; on sentences using <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=T%28P%28%5Culcorner+A+%5Curcorner%29%29&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=61636a&#038;s=0' alt='T(P(\ulcorner A \urcorner))' title='T(P(\ulcorner A \urcorner))' class='latex' />. I suppose that&#8217;s not as obviously relevant to your idea as I initially thought. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know much about the operator theories of truth, either. Probably the most worked out theory in this vein is the prosentential theory (Grover, et al). I guess the generalization issue is this: the truth predicate allows us to generalize over sentences using out regular old first-order quantifiers (the truth predicate allows for semantic ascent). On an operator theory of truth there&#8217;s no &#8220;semantic ascent&#8221; going on; we&#8217;d still need propositional or substitutional quantification in order to generalize over the true sentences. So we&#8217;re introducing a new kind of quantification to play the generalizing role that the truth predicate was intended to play.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Truth as an operator and as a predicate by Andrew</title>
		<link>http://possiblyphilosophy.wordpress.com/2009/11/05/truth-as-an-operator-and-as-a-predicate/#comment-1667</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 13:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://possiblyphilosophy.wordpress.com/?p=408#comment-1667</guid>
		<description>Hi Aaron,

I&#039;m glad you commented actually, as I&#039;m coming to this with basically no knowledge of the literature at all. What is the well known result you mentioned in your second sentence? Is there anything written on the operator versus predicate theories of truth? (After writing this I realised that I&#039;m still not crystal clear why one turns out to be consistent.)

Incidentally, I&#039;m not sure I agree with your point about the generalization capabilities of the operator theory. At least, if you&#039;re willing to accept that name*s are illegitimate then can&#039;t you just formulate the generalizations using propositional quantification?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Aaron,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m glad you commented actually, as I&#8217;m coming to this with basically no knowledge of the literature at all. What is the well known result you mentioned in your second sentence? Is there anything written on the operator versus predicate theories of truth? (After writing this I realised that I&#8217;m still not crystal clear why one turns out to be consistent.)</p>
<p>Incidentally, I&#8217;m not sure I agree with your point about the generalization capabilities of the operator theory. At least, if you&#8217;re willing to accept that name*s are illegitimate then can&#8217;t you just formulate the generalizations using propositional quantification?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Truth as an operator and as a predicate by Aaron</title>
		<link>http://possiblyphilosophy.wordpress.com/2009/11/05/truth-as-an-operator-and-as-a-predicate/#comment-1666</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 12:03:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://possiblyphilosophy.wordpress.com/?p=408#comment-1666</guid>
		<description>Cool! It&#039;s well known that if one has a naive truth predicate, then operators are available for free. But I&#039;m not sure anyone&#039;s ever shown anything like the converse. If you have a truth operator theory (within certain assumptions) it is similar to a certain kind of predicate theory.

Part of the problem of with the operator theory of truth is that it doesn&#039;t yield the generalization capabilities of unrestricted predicate type theories. So it&#039;s not really a good candidate if you&#039;re a deflationist.  That fact is born out here in an interesting way: the weak Kleene theory doesn&#039;t allow generalization over the ungrounded sentences at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cool! It&#8217;s well known that if one has a naive truth predicate, then operators are available for free. But I&#8217;m not sure anyone&#8217;s ever shown anything like the converse. If you have a truth operator theory (within certain assumptions) it is similar to a certain kind of predicate theory.</p>
<p>Part of the problem of with the operator theory of truth is that it doesn&#8217;t yield the generalization capabilities of unrestricted predicate type theories. So it&#8217;s not really a good candidate if you&#8217;re a deflationist.  That fact is born out here in an interesting way: the weak Kleene theory doesn&#8217;t allow generalization over the ungrounded sentences at all.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Rigid Designation by Andrew Bacon</title>
		<link>http://possiblyphilosophy.wordpress.com/2009/10/23/rigid-designation/#comment-1658</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Bacon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 17:23:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://possiblyphilosophy.wordpress.com/?p=415#comment-1658</guid>
		<description>Hi Mike,

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. 

Part of the problem with that was that you can construct models where $latex \exists x \Box \mbox{&#039;Fred&#039; denotes } x$ is true but actually Fred denotes different individuals in different worlds (as does the variable x on the assignment that makes this sentence true.)

Another point is that we have the following two claims:

1) Necessarily &quot;Aristotle&quot; denotes Aristotle

2) It&#039;s contingently the case that &quot;Aristotle&quot; denotes Fred.

If we followed the suggestion at the end of the post we could existentially generalize to get the result that &quot;Aristotle&quot; both contingently denotes some object and necessarily denotes another. So if we were following you&#039;re suggestion it woulb both be a rigid and an accidental designator.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Mike,</p>
<p>Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. </p>
<p>Part of the problem with that was that you can construct models where <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=%5Cexists+x+%5CBox+%5Cmbox%7B%27Fred%27+denotes+%7D+x&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=61636a&#038;s=0' alt='\exists x \Box \mbox{&#039;Fred&#039; denotes } x' title='\exists x \Box \mbox{&#039;Fred&#039; denotes } x' class='latex' /> is true but actually Fred denotes different individuals in different worlds (as does the variable x on the assignment that makes this sentence true.)</p>
<p>Another point is that we have the following two claims:</p>
<p>1) Necessarily &#8220;Aristotle&#8221; denotes Aristotle</p>
<p>2) It&#8217;s contingently the case that &#8220;Aristotle&#8221; denotes Fred.</p>
<p>If we followed the suggestion at the end of the post we could existentially generalize to get the result that &#8220;Aristotle&#8221; both contingently denotes some object and necessarily denotes another. So if we were following you&#8217;re suggestion it woulb both be a rigid and an accidental designator.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Rigid Designation by Mike Caie</title>
		<link>http://possiblyphilosophy.wordpress.com/2009/10/23/rigid-designation/#comment-1630</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Caie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 02:25:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://possiblyphilosophy.wordpress.com/?p=415#comment-1630</guid>
		<description>hmmm not sure how to make logical symbols appear here. I thought it was just the Tex commands but obviously not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hmmm not sure how to make logical symbols appear here. I thought it was just the Tex commands but obviously not.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Rigid Designation by Mike Caie</title>
		<link>http://possiblyphilosophy.wordpress.com/2009/10/23/rigid-designation/#comment-1629</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Caie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 02:24:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://possiblyphilosophy.wordpress.com/?p=415#comment-1629</guid>
		<description>I imagine there&#039;s an obvious answer to this, but it wasn&#039;t obvious to me from the post. Why does $latex \exists x \Box `Fred&#039; denotes x$ not suffice to express at least something like the rigid designation claim. This is different from the case you consider where we have: `Fred&#039; necessarily denotes Fred, where `Fred&#039;(and ``Fred&#039;&#039;) is within the scope of the modal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I imagine there&#8217;s an obvious answer to this, but it wasn&#8217;t obvious to me from the post. Why does <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=%5Cexists+x+%5CBox+%60Fred%27+denotes+x&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=61636a&#038;s=0' alt='\exists x \Box `Fred&#039; denotes x' title='\exists x \Box `Fred&#039; denotes x' class='latex' /> not suffice to express at least something like the rigid designation claim. This is different from the case you consider where we have: `Fred&#8217; necessarily denotes Fred, where `Fred&#8217;(and &#8220;Fred&#8221;) is within the scope of the modal.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Rigid Designation by Andrew</title>
		<link>http://possiblyphilosophy.wordpress.com/2009/10/23/rigid-designation/#comment-1621</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 14:06:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://possiblyphilosophy.wordpress.com/?p=415#comment-1621</guid>
		<description>Thanks Kenny. I guess I wasn&#039;t really paying enough attention to that subtlety. 

The claims I wanted them to agree on were the material conditional versions: i.e. necessarily either Socrates was a philosopher or Fred was Plato and Ned was Aristotle, and necessarily either Socrates was never a philosopher or Fred was Aristotle and Ned was Plato.

So the question becomes: is there something that tribe A could learn about tribe B&#039;s use of &quot;Fred&quot; and &quot;Ned&quot; that could cause them to accept these claims (and vice versa for tribe B and &quot;Aristotle&quot; /&quot;Plato&quot;.)

On the one hand, if Aristotle and Plato differ over their essential properties then one could distinguish Fred and Aristotle by their modal properties. But I think that we can then make a good case that tribe B are speaking a very unnatural language.

If we chose to reformulate the argument with objects that have no non-haecceitistic modal differences, like two twins in a symmetric universe, then the two languages seem more on a par in terms of naturalness. But then I also can&#039;t see what fact they could ever come to learn that would make them accept (1) and (2). 

That said, in the latter case I can&#039;t think what would make them come to agree that Fred was necessarily twin1 and Ned was necessarily twin2 either. My inclination is to say there is no matter of fact in such cases. (Compare the case with two mathematician tribes who independently come up with names for the roots of -1. One tribe calls them i and -i, the other / and \ and it seems there&#039;s no matter of fact whether  to translate i as / or \.) I need to spend some more time sorting this out in my head though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Kenny. I guess I wasn&#8217;t really paying enough attention to that subtlety. </p>
<p>The claims I wanted them to agree on were the material conditional versions: i.e. necessarily either Socrates was a philosopher or Fred was Plato and Ned was Aristotle, and necessarily either Socrates was never a philosopher or Fred was Aristotle and Ned was Plato.</p>
<p>So the question becomes: is there something that tribe A could learn about tribe B&#8217;s use of &#8220;Fred&#8221; and &#8220;Ned&#8221; that could cause them to accept these claims (and vice versa for tribe B and &#8220;Aristotle&#8221; /&#8221;Plato&#8221;.)</p>
<p>On the one hand, if Aristotle and Plato differ over their essential properties then one could distinguish Fred and Aristotle by their modal properties. But I think that we can then make a good case that tribe B are speaking a very unnatural language.</p>
<p>If we chose to reformulate the argument with objects that have no non-haecceitistic modal differences, like two twins in a symmetric universe, then the two languages seem more on a par in terms of naturalness. But then I also can&#8217;t see what fact they could ever come to learn that would make them accept (1) and (2). </p>
<p>That said, in the latter case I can&#8217;t think what would make them come to agree that Fred was necessarily twin1 and Ned was necessarily twin2 either. My inclination is to say there is no matter of fact in such cases. (Compare the case with two mathematician tribes who independently come up with names for the roots of -1. One tribe calls them i and -i, the other / and \ and it seems there&#8217;s no matter of fact whether  to translate i as / or \.) I need to spend some more time sorting this out in my head though.</p>
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